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	<title>Comments on: Israel! Israel! Praise the Lord!</title>
	<link>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/</link>
	<description>Pro-Jewish, Pro-Arab, Pro-Peace</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 04:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Steffi</title>
		<link>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/#comment-13164</link>
		<author>Steffi</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Aug 2006 03:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/#comment-13164</guid>
					<description>Brad: First, I am so glad you are blogging again. It's great to hear from you, specifically, because you always have thoughtful and thought-provoking things to say, and given that Andrew,  as you probably know, is extremely busy getting his new practice started, it's wonderful that you are able to contribute at this crucial time. 
Second: Regarding the "zero dissent" notion, I was very interested to learn in an article in Haaretz yesterday that Tzipi Livni, Israel's foreign minister, has apparently disagreed with the government's policies and actions regarding Lebanon from the start. She favored a limited and contained military response to Hizbollah's capture of the soldiers, followed by political and diplomatic initiatives. She was, of course, outvoted, and since then has remained silent, refusing to engage in all of the media appearances promoting and justifying the war that the other cabinet ministers have been doing. Now, Olmert at the last minute forced her to cancel her scheduled trip to the UN, saying that she had not gotten permission from him in time, and furthermore has removed her from his inner circle. So even Olmert wants to be sure that there is "zero dissent" -- at least no dissent that will be heard or given any consideration. I find this depressing and distressing.
   I don't know what you are experiencing in DC, but around here, there are a surprising number of people who are coming out of the woodwork, stimulated by just how outraged they are. At a local Brit Tzedek open meeting, about 30 people showed up who had either long ago given up activism, or had never been involved in it, to say that now, they felt they needed to speak up and to be counted as Jews who dissented from the "party line." So, keep up the good work: people who are angry need to to know that they are not alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad: First, I am so glad you are blogging again. It&#8217;s great to hear from you, specifically, because you always have thoughtful and thought-provoking things to say, and given that Andrew,  as you probably know, is extremely busy getting his new practice started, it&#8217;s wonderful that you are able to contribute at this crucial time.<br />
Second: Regarding the &#8220;zero dissent&#8221; notion, I was very interested to learn in an article in Haaretz yesterday that Tzipi Livni, Israel&#8217;s foreign minister, has apparently disagreed with the government&#8217;s policies and actions regarding Lebanon from the start. She favored a limited and contained military response to Hizbollah&#8217;s capture of the soldiers, followed by political and diplomatic initiatives. She was, of course, outvoted, and since then has remained silent, refusing to engage in all of the media appearances promoting and justifying the war that the other cabinet ministers have been doing. Now, Olmert at the last minute forced her to cancel her scheduled trip to the UN, saying that she had not gotten permission from him in time, and furthermore has removed her from his inner circle. So even Olmert wants to be sure that there is &#8220;zero dissent&#8221; &#8212; at least no dissent that will be heard or given any consideration. I find this depressing and distressing.<br />
   I don&#8217;t know what you are experiencing in DC, but around here, there are a surprising number of people who are coming out of the woodwork, stimulated by just how outraged they are. At a local Brit Tzedek open meeting, about 30 people showed up who had either long ago given up activism, or had never been involved in it, to say that now, they felt they needed to speak up and to be counted as Jews who dissented from the &#8220;party line.&#8221; So, keep up the good work: people who are angry need to to know that they are not alone.</p>
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		<title>By: gerald schamess</title>
		<link>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/#comment-13180</link>
		<author>gerald schamess</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Aug 2006 01:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/#comment-13180</guid>
					<description>Thank you for a cogent commentary on the similarities between the Fundamentalist Christian and the Fundamentalist Jewish ways of thinking.  I agree that they are eerily similar and probably not all that different from how Fundamentalist Moslems see the world.  Those of us who try to understand and act on shades of grey are marginalized.  Consequently, we have to struggle not to give in to depression and feelings of helplessness/hopelessness.  

I gather that the most truly Fundamentalist Christians see the Arab-Jewish conflict and probably America's "war on terrorism" as well,  as the beginning of what they call "the Rapture."  As I (imperfectly) understand it, the "Rapture" tells the story of the end of the world, as initiated by Christ's "second coming." At the beginning of the Rapture, devout Christians and Jews who convert to Christianity, are transported instantly to heaven... and are never heard from again.  That clears the decks for an Apocalyptic struggle in which the forces of good (Christ) and evil (Satan) collide in mortal conflict.  Satan is eventually defeated, but the earth is totally destroyed: a truly uplifting outcome for those of us who have different viewpoints and/or whowould like to survive as non-combatants.   The Rapture gives Jews a choice between converting and dying a horrible death.  

With Fundamentalist friends like that, Israel hardly needs any Moslem enemies. From my current perspective, the diaspora seems more and more like the better refuge for Jewish beliefs.

Gerry Schamess</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for a cogent commentary on the similarities between the Fundamentalist Christian and the Fundamentalist Jewish ways of thinking.  I agree that they are eerily similar and probably not all that different from how Fundamentalist Moslems see the world.  Those of us who try to understand and act on shades of grey are marginalized.  Consequently, we have to struggle not to give in to depression and feelings of helplessness/hopelessness.  </p>
<p>I gather that the most truly Fundamentalist Christians see the Arab-Jewish conflict and probably America&#8217;s &#8220;war on terrorism&#8221; as well,  as the beginning of what they call &#8220;the Rapture.&#8221;  As I (imperfectly) understand it, the &#8220;Rapture&#8221; tells the story of the end of the world, as initiated by Christ&#8217;s &#8220;second coming.&#8221; At the beginning of the Rapture, devout Christians and Jews who convert to Christianity, are transported instantly to heaven&#8230; and are never heard from again.  That clears the decks for an Apocalyptic struggle in which the forces of good (Christ) and evil (Satan) collide in mortal conflict.  Satan is eventually defeated, but the earth is totally destroyed: a truly uplifting outcome for those of us who have different viewpoints and/or whowould like to survive as non-combatants.   The Rapture gives Jews a choice between converting and dying a horrible death.  </p>
<p>With Fundamentalist friends like that, Israel hardly needs any Moslem enemies. From my current perspective, the diaspora seems more and more like the better refuge for Jewish beliefs.</p>
<p>Gerry Schamess</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Brooks-Rubin</title>
		<link>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/#comment-13291</link>
		<author>Brad Brooks-Rubin</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/#comment-13291</guid>
					<description>Sorry to leave a comment to my own post, but wanted to let interested readers know that mention was made of this post in Ha'aretz last week -- but only in the Hebrew edition.  If you are interested, you can find it &lt;a href="http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=752058&#038;contrassID=2&#038;subContrassID=21&#038;sbSubContrassID=0"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to leave a comment to my own post, but wanted to let interested readers know that mention was made of this post in Ha&#8217;aretz last week &#8212; but only in the Hebrew edition.  If you are interested, you can find it <a href="http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=752058&#038;contrassID=2&#038;subContrassID=21&#038;sbSubContrassID=0">here</a></p>
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		<title>By: Wendy in Washington</title>
		<link>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/#comment-13682</link>
		<author>Wendy in Washington</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/#comment-13682</guid>
					<description>I was very troubled by this, Brad. Your assumption that most American Jews, or Jews in general, are sheep, not daring to dissent, is belied by your own work and by the firings and introspection in Israel both during and after this latest tragic war in Lebanon. 

There is a great deal of internal dissent. That is different from PUBLIC dissent, and as Israel is relentlessly attacked by many powerful voices, many Jews, including me, don't feel the need to add another critique. To take one example: the new "and improved" Human Rights Council at the UN has devoted 100 percent of its activity and resolutions to Israel. Yes, the previous Human Rights Committee devoted only about 80 percent to Israel--this group is 100 percent. But you feel more attacks in the US are needed? 

Secondly, I find your portrayal of Christian evangelicals to be insulting. I think the preachers and the theology are difficult for me to understand, but I don't go around ridiculing them. So you've offended many Jews and millions of evangelical Christians. But hey, if it means you get mentioned in Ha'aretz, it's all worth it. And of course I learned of this blog from a friend who circulates any viciously anti-Israel thing he can get ahold of. (There's no shortage). 

In disappointment at this insulting and false post, and hoping to see better, I'll wish you a Happy New Year. --Wendy in Washington

PS Do you judge all organizations and ethnic groups by their fund-raising letters? Fund-raising is a science that uses a lot of fear and ahate-mongering. The Jewish community, alas, is not immune. But as the saying goes, even paranoid people have real enemies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was very troubled by this, Brad. Your assumption that most American Jews, or Jews in general, are sheep, not daring to dissent, is belied by your own work and by the firings and introspection in Israel both during and after this latest tragic war in Lebanon. </p>
<p>There is a great deal of internal dissent. That is different from PUBLIC dissent, and as Israel is relentlessly attacked by many powerful voices, many Jews, including me, don&#8217;t feel the need to add another critique. To take one example: the new &#8220;and improved&#8221; Human Rights Council at the UN has devoted 100 percent of its activity and resolutions to Israel. Yes, the previous Human Rights Committee devoted only about 80 percent to Israel&#8211;this group is 100 percent. But you feel more attacks in the US are needed? </p>
<p>Secondly, I find your portrayal of Christian evangelicals to be insulting. I think the preachers and the theology are difficult for me to understand, but I don&#8217;t go around ridiculing them. So you&#8217;ve offended many Jews and millions of evangelical Christians. But hey, if it means you get mentioned in Ha&#8217;aretz, it&#8217;s all worth it. And of course I learned of this blog from a friend who circulates any viciously anti-Israel thing he can get ahold of. (There&#8217;s no shortage). </p>
<p>In disappointment at this insulting and false post, and hoping to see better, I&#8217;ll wish you a Happy New Year. &#8211;Wendy in Washington</p>
<p>PS Do you judge all organizations and ethnic groups by their fund-raising letters? Fund-raising is a science that uses a lot of fear and ahate-mongering. The Jewish community, alas, is not immune. But as the saying goes, even paranoid people have real enemies.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Brooks-Rubin</title>
		<link>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/#comment-13685</link>
		<author>Brad Brooks-Rubin</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 21:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://semitism.net/2006/08/12/israel-israel-hallelujah/#comment-13685</guid>
					<description>Wendy, you raise several important issues.  Allow me to respond, even if somewhat hastily before the holiday.  I look forward to a longer discussion on these issues. 

First, I'm somewhat surprised to hear your statement that more "attacks" on Israel are not needed because of what Israel faces from the UN and elsewhere.  If anything, the Jewish community has the ultimate responsibility to speak out about what Israel does, because of our historical connection to Israel, Israel's reliance on us, our organizations' insistence that we continue to be connected, that our kids be connected, etc.  So, if that's what we need to be, why should we not speak up?  There is signifcant internal debate within the Bush Admin. about how to handle Iraq.  Should we the American people not criticize the Admin. then because there is internal debate and they get criticized enough already?  

On that point -- second, and more importantly, you are right that there is private, internal debate in the mainstream community.  I have taken refusers myself to meet with leaders of AIPAC, WINEP, JCPA, Hillel, the RAC, etc.  But those are closed-door discussions, off-limits to the public, even the Jewish public.  As I demonstrated in this post and others, throughout Lebanon and continuing conflict in Palestine, the mainstream organizations' interest is not in presenting even a nuanced, pro-Israeli policy argument.  Their interest seems to be in blanket support.  Hoenlein himself said there was "zero dissent" in the community about Lebanon, and not one of the mainstream groups put out information that took even a slightly critical look at what was happening.

But they shouldn't, it sounds like you are saying, because Israel was at war, and their job is to support.  But then you go on to talk about the post-war hand-wringing and examination in Israel.  Many of those issues were evident during the war, but why did no one speak up?  And even now, are we hearing anything in the mainstream community about the debate inside Israel?  Do you think the mainstream groups will have talking points and FAQs ready when the commission's report is done?  Will they even mention it? 

The main point, though, is who is part of this internal debate you describe.  Sure, there are close-to-the-mainstream peace groups like Brit Tzedek and AFPN, but what percentage of the community do they represent in public perception?  Polls may show many American Jews identify with their positions and approaches, but that is not what is reflected to the rest of the community, to the disengaged Jews, to the American public, to the Arab world, etc.  Even to Israel itself.  And if it's not in the public, then it may as well not exist so far as impact and influence are concerned.  When we are viewed as a community that is "Israel, right or wrong," and particularly when we act like one, then we deserve to see that in black and white and think about what that really means, what we are really standing for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wendy, you raise several important issues.  Allow me to respond, even if somewhat hastily before the holiday.  I look forward to a longer discussion on these issues. </p>
<p>First, I&#8217;m somewhat surprised to hear your statement that more &#8220;attacks&#8221; on Israel are not needed because of what Israel faces from the UN and elsewhere.  If anything, the Jewish community has the ultimate responsibility to speak out about what Israel does, because of our historical connection to Israel, Israel&#8217;s reliance on us, our organizations&#8217; insistence that we continue to be connected, that our kids be connected, etc.  So, if that&#8217;s what we need to be, why should we not speak up?  There is signifcant internal debate within the Bush Admin. about how to handle Iraq.  Should we the American people not criticize the Admin. then because there is internal debate and they get criticized enough already?  </p>
<p>On that point &#8212; second, and more importantly, you are right that there is private, internal debate in the mainstream community.  I have taken refusers myself to meet with leaders of AIPAC, WINEP, JCPA, Hillel, the RAC, etc.  But those are closed-door discussions, off-limits to the public, even the Jewish public.  As I demonstrated in this post and others, throughout Lebanon and continuing conflict in Palestine, the mainstream organizations&#8217; interest is not in presenting even a nuanced, pro-Israeli policy argument.  Their interest seems to be in blanket support.  Hoenlein himself said there was &#8220;zero dissent&#8221; in the community about Lebanon, and not one of the mainstream groups put out information that took even a slightly critical look at what was happening.</p>
<p>But they shouldn&#8217;t, it sounds like you are saying, because Israel was at war, and their job is to support.  But then you go on to talk about the post-war hand-wringing and examination in Israel.  Many of those issues were evident during the war, but why did no one speak up?  And even now, are we hearing anything in the mainstream community about the debate inside Israel?  Do you think the mainstream groups will have talking points and FAQs ready when the commission&#8217;s report is done?  Will they even mention it? </p>
<p>The main point, though, is who is part of this internal debate you describe.  Sure, there are close-to-the-mainstream peace groups like Brit Tzedek and AFPN, but what percentage of the community do they represent in public perception?  Polls may show many American Jews identify with their positions and approaches, but that is not what is reflected to the rest of the community, to the disengaged Jews, to the American public, to the Arab world, etc.  Even to Israel itself.  And if it&#8217;s not in the public, then it may as well not exist so far as impact and influence are concerned.  When we are viewed as a community that is &#8220;Israel, right or wrong,&#8221; and particularly when we act like one, then we deserve to see that in black and white and think about what that really means, what we are really standing for.</p>
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